fuel for thought on cat pop. in mt.

[BIGBLUES]

How do you go about setting up a board?

[old timer]

If you guys are serious about a board I will help you. Once you decide we will talk to the fish and game, without them it will not work. The first board was controlled from region one. I will talk to them. I will have to do it in late june. My wife and I are driving to Alaska end of this month for six weeks to see our two daughters. Maybe do some fishing to. In the mean time you can discus this with other houndsman. We do have time to do this. We are not in as much hurry as we were the first time. We do not have a law suit hanging over our heads threatening to shut our season done for good, so lets do it right.

[old timer]

This is what came out of those board meetings. A solution that a friend and I came up with and I presented this to the board was this, no out of state hunters would be aloud to run there dogs out here during the kill season. None of the other solution were any better for the out of staters either. This would take legistlative action, hence HB 142 was formed. The opposition to HB 142, it did not do anything about the outfitters. Some thought the outfitters would take advantage. I was responsible for talking and keeping MOGA (montana outfitters and guides association) up to date on the meetings. I argued with them that the only way this would work if the outfitters would control themselves and limit the number of hunters they took. The down side if they didn't, would be a draw and that does not work for an outfitter, so there is an incentive to make this work for them. MOGA was on board with this idea. We passed the bill with a lot of hard work. We dismantled the board. Only time will till. At least it got the law suit off our backs for the moment. The bill was not passed quite the way it had been first wrote up. There was a lopehole that some of the out of state hunters found after a couple of years and took advantage of. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against out of state hunters. But if we didn't do something we were all going to lose. We had two choices, this or a draw. It worked fine for a while. Human nature took over after a while, a couple of outfitters started to take advantage and more out of state hunters with there dogs started to show up again. Next thing we know is we now have a draw. later I will argue what I think about the pro and cons of a draw.

[old timer]

I am still trying to figure out how to use this sight if I did not get back to you it's because I am not sure how to and I am not Stan but I do know him.

[mtdoghunter]

ok i gotta put my 2 cents worth in. I live in trego and there are a few hound guys around and all i hear is there is no big toms. BULLSH'T since season has closed and i am now on the quest for mushrooms i have been busting thru snow drifts trying to get to places and there are a decent number of good size cats out there. I am not new to this game and understand that not all big tracks are from big tom but its proven that ALL BIG TOMS leave big tracks. I think cause of the deep snow we are just unable to get to the remote spots these cats inhabit. and believe you me i have already order tracks for my toyota so that way i can really get my a"" stuck trying to get to these guys.sure if you hunt the low lands where snow is not so deep you have a hard time finding a good cat. So be patient wait until they pair up it makes those ever elusive toms come out to look for the ladies. there is just as many big toms floating around here as there is in lets say oregon where they are not aloud to be dogged. i personally hunt in oregon and you dont see any more big cats there. the problem is nutrion. deer/elk/and moose pop. down will equal small cats try starving yourself for awhile and see what you look like and not to mention the constant harrasment from the wolves. you want bigger cats get rid of the wolf. just my opinion.

[BIGBLUES]

Every area is different so this will lead to different opinions on which process works better or worse to manage a healthy lion population. The area I hunted last season I snow machined a lot of it and there isn't many big toms high or low period. I blame this on the permit system. Picture the 20-30 permits given out falling into the hands of houndsmen that only want to harvest a monster. 4.25 months of them hunting an area would seriously damage the big tom population. But like I said every area is different. This is why its good to get all these different opinions on management systems. I don't have an answer but the more I chat with people the better of an idea I have.

[old timer]

The $64.000 question. Quota or the draw. A simple question, with no real answer. Everybody has a different opinion on what makes a good hunt. Some people it's that big cat,elk, deer or mayby a big bull moose. Some people it's just the oppertunity to go hunting, no matter what size it is. Nobody is wrong. mtdoghunter is right, without the pray base for the cats to eat you have no cats, but just as important is genetics. Region one has always had good genetics. We have shot at least 5 or more cats in the past that were in that 140 to 150lbs. class that ended up only binging 2 year olds. But at the same time we have shot a lot of mature cats that will never get over 140 to 150lbs limit no matter how much they eat. The wolf right now is the wild card in all this. If there pop. continual to increase, a lot of this conversation will be for nothing. Good thing about a draw is you can control how many cats gets killed. The bad thing is a lot of hunters only target big cats and there's not enough to go around just like any other animal. A straight quota will open the flood gates. We would have overruns just like before. I will guarantee you, we will be facing lawsuits again. The last 3 or 4 years I have been talking to the F&G about mayby increasing the draw by quite a bit and then putting a quota in place. That way you make a little race out of it and you still control the numbers of hunters out there. I think sombody else hit on this to, in this forum. I think you would get a more cross section of cats being killed. MT. hunting has always been based on hunting opportunity, not for the trophy hunter. I have a question for the utah and AZ. hunters, it seems to me that more and more of your hunting is moving towards trophy hunting for elk and deer and is that the reason for such liberal seasons on your cats and bears. let me know if I am wrong, and have you ever been threaten with a lawsuit from the anti's, like we have been here in MT..

[Lost River]

I started hound hunting in 1989, so I am new to hounds in some respects and experienced in other ways. All I can do is draw on 20 plus years of observations. I was lucky and I got to hunt in the hay day and I also seen some pretty thin times. I see folks speak about the Missoula Management Area and also talk about the big toms that have been taken out of there. Big is relative, so lets speak in terms of mature and I think we can maybe come to some consensus that a mature tom is 5 or 6 years old. To me a big cat is a cat that makes Boone and Crocket and 160 plus pound, to others it is any cat that breaks 100 lbs, others talk about a big cat and that means a mountain lion period. But for arguements sake I would like to say a mature tom is AT LEAST 4 years old. He has spent a couple years on his own away from momma and is starting to fill in body wise and might weight in the 120-130 lb range. He is now on the move and looking for ladies as well as looking for something to satisfy his hunger. As that lion reaches 5, 6 or 7 years old he becomes bolder and bolder as far as his regaurd and respect for other cats' territories and will venture out from ground that he may have laid claim as his own.
Many of us have had the pure joy/hell of dumping on one of these cats that is on a February march to find himself love, romance and a long piece of tail. We dumped on a cat last season that covered over 50 miles and we were not able to catch him, we went two days basically daylight to dark trying to get this cat caught up. This cat's home range was about 5 air miles from the Missoula Management Area (MMA). This cat would cross into the MMA on occasion, but maybe ventured a mile or so in, but alway returned to his "home range". From reports I get, he made the mistake of crossing into there one too many times and found himself dead.
Mature toms, in my opinion are not being grown, reared or living in the MMA. These cats live in outlying permit draw districts and are being killed when they cross into the MMA while they are out on a walkabout. The MMA has a massive concentration of hound hunters that are carrying a general tag in their pocket and looking to wack a cat. A mature tom in the MMA is a Dead Cat Walking!!!!! I know a guy who had access to a piece of ground that was 80 acres. It was wedged in between about 8,000 acres of private ground. There was several guys that had access to this piece. They pretty much shot everything they seen and took A LOT of animals off that 80 acres. That sure doesn't mean that 80 acres can support 10-15 deer and 5 elk being shot off it every year but with 8000 acres around it and game coming in from that 8000 acres it did.
The MMA is similar. It sits in the hub of 5 valleys that are major drainages. These drainages near Missoula hold very high concentrations of deer and the outlying areas have had the game numbers crushed by wolves. This is an ideal situation where a lot of young lions are naturally drawn to the food source and also there is no presense of a dominant tom that is a threatening to rip their head off.
Soooo... we have a lot of food, no threat from mature males and the only real worry is dodging people. The MMA has some "quality ground" to that is a ways out of town and this MMA acts as a magnet for these younger cat and especially females with kittens or young to feed. With permit only areas surrounding the MMA it will always produce a decent number of cats and also some dandy cats, but I will argue none of these big toms are being born, reared and live there. They get 2 or 3 years old and they are blasted and dead if they actually live in the MMA. The mature toms are coming from the permit areas and are on walkabout along with young cats to filter in as the other females and 2 and 3 year old toms get wacked. As long as there are permit areas around the MMA there will be cats moving in the replace those that are shot, this is a big part of the reason that the folks that love to go shoot a cat every year should really support the permit areas around the MMA. Put the surrounding areas on this increased quota and wack away we will be 2-5 years away from being back to 300-500 miles of humping to find a cat to chase.
I am going to confess something that I have kept, and my hunting partners have kept close to our vests but I guess for arguements sake I will have to share. I can count 6 different toms in my mind right now that we have either treed or taken mental note of that are in the draw areas. All 6 of these toms will go over 150 and have the potential to be Boone and Crocket cats. Again, these are in the permit areas that surround the MMA. At any given time, any of these toms could go on a walkabout looking for a lady and end up in the MMA. I can think of 2 or 3 more that are a bit further out and most likely won't ever walk into the MMA, but stranger things have happened.
I think saying killing more cats with the belief that quotas will fill and more big cats will make it is not realistic in any way, shape or form. I truly don't want to come off as disrepetful because I really want to sway peoples opinions and if you piss someone off they sure won't see your way of thinking. I can tell you this, if they change from the permit system to the quota and open it up there is little chance those 6 or 8 cats will make it through the season. Hell, if they change the way they are doing this myself and my hunting partners might as well kill them ourselves because that is what everyone else is gonna do.
Here is a cat that lived outside the MMA.


My cousin treed this cat several times over a 3 year period and watched him go from probably a 4 year old 130 lb tom to a 170lber. He chose to leave this cat in the tree and his tag in his pocket last year. That cat got put in the tree three times and pictures taken. Well this year he went on a walkabout, crossed a highway into the MMA and lived for about 20 hours. The lion ended up 168lbs and made Boone. Look at this guy, do you really think he lived in the MMA for 7 years and was let go by hound dawger after hound dawger?


Here is another one... do you think he would live long in the MMA?
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/2108_1018593065185_1235884541_30101721_1011_n.jpg
And another...

And another...

How bout this one, would he live to be 8 plus years old in the MMA or a quota driven area?

[Lost River]

I truly enjoy seeing a big cat his the ground. All four of these cats were taken this year. Two of them in the MMA and two of them with permits. I can tell you that the two that were taken with permits had, at different times, crossed into the MMA edges.





Sorry crappy picture
[imghttp://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/525863_3468102593689_1604813954_2787169_507669232_n.jpg][/img]


Another stud taken


last one for the year.


If you really want a chance at a big cat I think you have to support a permit system. Yes, it is a pain sometimes to draw a tag, but really, what are you going to do with three or four cats? Some people will say, "Some people don't care if they kill a big cat, they just want a cat." Then buy a general tag and head to the MMA and shoot one there. Those cats are living in suburban areas or very close and stand a higher chance of getting their butts in trouble and having the fish and game have to wack them anyway. I believe if the areas around Missoula have a permit system the MMA is always gonna be a place to find a cat to shoot. If the areas around it get open to high quotas, the MMA maintains a very high quota like it has, then it will follow suit and be a void area.
I had a similar debate/arguement/disagreement with Don Paey. Don speaks of an area on the front down in Utah. They felt cats were enchroaching on town and killing too many deer. They asked biologist how many cats they believed were living in the area. Biologist believed there 15-20 cats along this range. The biologist agreed to a year round open season. I think this was set for a 2 year period to "reduce" the number of cats. There was 88 cats killed during that time and Don says this shows there were way more cats there than the biologist thought. I say horse shit, there probably was 15-20, but as those 15-20 got wacked the outlying areas that didn't have the deer density had cats move in and take up home where the previous cat got wacked. The MMA is no different. Chat with our fellow Utah hound hunters on this site and ask them how they feel about the quota system working for producing big cats, or how bout any cats at all? I went to over 20 trees this year, I bet most Utah guys would kill to have that. Why do we want to destroy a good thing?
Again, I will apologize if I have offended anyone. Like I said before, I really am wanting to convince folks to stick with a permit system. Happy hunting all, and keep'm treed! Casey
PS This is why I hunt lions.



Not for a kill
[imghttp://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc6/247774_1897240443117_1604813954_1874066_3688520_n.jpg][/img]

[Brent Sinclair]

Casey
GREAT post....gives one alot of info to ponder on.......and some truly big lions you have treed......
It sheds some light.
I agree with alot your stating here as I have seen the trend in many areas I have hunted over the years.
Hope the fellas reading your and the other fellas messages take some time to think and do what is right for the benifit of everyone.
Alot of good info from all you lion hunters on here.....keep it up this is what this message board should be about.


PS: nothin like seein a young fella with a hound pup...that's what it all about!!!!!

Good Hunting

[Lost River]

Thanks Brent. I know you have spent many years hunting all of the world and I always enjoy your perspective and with your experience comes a great deal of knowledge. One other thing came to mind last night after I recieved another facebook message from a friend that is a nonresident wanting to come to Montana and shoot a cat. For the most part that is what hunters do, and really what nonresident hunters do. Someone who travels 600 plus miles or jumps on a couple airplanes and spends some serious coin has a desire to take home a cat. Many have the attitude that are here to take home a trophy cat as the plane lands, but by day two of hunting a mature tom would be fine, day four a 'big' female would be alright and then when they hit day 6 any cat is gonna die, period. They spent money and by God they want something. Most aren't happy with a thumb drive full of pictures of a couple cats they got to see in the tree and just have to have a hide to take home.
First let me say this before I piss a bunch of outfitters off, I was an outfitter for almost 10 years and have guided here and there for twice that long. I think the outfitting biz is one of the greatest things going out there, but like any other biz or occupation there are some dandys. The areas I hunt in near and around Missoula have a lot of outfitters that can/will take cat hunters. With the limitted permit system the number of lion tags given to nonresident hunters is set at a max of 10%. This was set by state law. Two things have happened with the outfitters I know. Of course they are taking fewer cat hunters but they have also increased the price of their hunts. The hunters are taking home, on average, much better cats and since they don't have 8 hunters to take in a season and they are taking maybe 2 or 3 they are running a little longer hunt.
In the 80's and especially into the mid 90's nonresidents were accounting for as much as 80% of the lions in and around the Missoula area. I know a lot of guys around here that were fighting mad over it. I met several Washington hunters who would take the month of December off and start up in region one and work their way into region two as quotas filled and they shot EVERY SINGLE LEGAL CAT THEY TREED!! Their reason was it cost them a couple hundred for a tag so they were gonna kill every cat. This was a common attitude of nonresident hunters. If we go back to the quota system, hang on. We are going to see a pile of nonresidents here with an expensive tag burning a hole in their pocket.
Just some more food for thought. Casey

[blackpaws]

I live in Wisconsin and will say that a permit/draw system is a big reason why we have a real good bear population. we also have good habitat for them and now with farmers planting every inch of ground with corn; we have enough food for them. The state is divided in to 4 units and the quotas are set accordingly. then the permits are issued accordingly to each unit. if less people apply in your unit, then it will take less years to get a tag. yeah it really sucks waiting 9 years for a tag but if it means that i get to see more bear to run and hopefully tree them, i am for it. nonresidents can apply here just like a resident can. all in the same system so they say. when drawn, nonresident tags are a bit higher priced but still able to purchase the tag. another thing that the WBHA has really hepled with is the ability to pass your tag to a youth hunter. this year my dad drew a tag and passed it to my daughter for her first tag. this is the only way any youth would get a tag unless they waited their 9 years of applying.

I think taking a bear would be the same as a lion. once you have taken one there should be no need to take another unless it is a mature animal. i shot my first lion this year in Wyoming and have no desire to take another. i will continue to head west in the winter but have no desire to ever shoot another cat.

[Rockydog]

great post Casey! ive been following this with much interest but dont have the experience to weigh in. right now is the fwp comment period on the hybrid and increased female harvest next season. can someone tell me under the hybrid season when the harvest opens up to a quota/general tag on Feb 1 will non-residents be limited or will it become an outfitter and NR free-for-all?

[old timer]

rockydog, I have not been able to keep up with some of the new regulations this year thats binging considered, do to kidney cancer with 3 major surgery, this is the first year in almost 50 years that I have not been able to hunt this winter or go to the F&G meetings. I am not happy about missing these meetings. I missed a very important meeting this winter on mule deer hunting in my area. Our local biologist pushed through something that does not makes sense in our area. after I get back from Alaska I will be fighting this. I would like to now what this hybrd season is that you are talking about. Thanks

[Rockydog]

Oldtimer, hope you get to feeling healthy again. At this link you can see the proposals. Basically they have raised most the female quotas and will make it so that all the units with unmet quota for male or female will be open to general tags starting Feb 1. Which means Feb 1 expect a flood of hunters I would think.

http://fwp.mt.gov/fwpDoc.html?id=55437