fuel for thought on cat pop. in mt.

[BIGBLUES]

Wow we are in for it with those harvest numbers. Is there any way we can talk with fwp and have them change the proposed harvest numbers? With that many heads on the chopping block we might as well sell our dogs and start hunting wolves. I just don't get fwp, it seems like its always political and not scientific when it comes to dealing with game management. If anyone knows how we can change what is proposed for next season let me know. I would much rather have the permits over what is coming.
Nice pics Casey. Sam's lion looks like a dandy.

[old timer]

Thanks rockydog, I have been looking at the information you gave me. I need to make a couple of calls and will let you know what I find out. I think I know What there trying to do put not for sure. I will comment once I know.

[old timer]

Today I ran into 2 houndsman while I was out having coffee. They asked me if I thought there was more big cats in the old days versus today. Tough question to answer. I guess it's how you look at it. If you talk percentages of big cats to the overall pop. YES.. Put there were very few cats back in those days. We have 10 times that many cats or more now, percentage wise, NO.. More numbers YES. I am talking region one, put it probably still fits to a certain degrees in the other regions to. The next question was, why do we not find then? You can still find a mature cat if you know where to look. In the fall hunting season I use horses about 90 persent of the time.I get back in places where very few people hunt. I am still seeing big cat tracks, there just not everywhere and you just keep looking. When most houndsman go hunting, the first track they see and they tend to be the younger cats they turn out on. The new genaration of houndsman are more into there dogs and the chase, nothing wrong with that. If you truly want a big cat you must be willing to spend many, many days looking for that one track. When you find that track and it may take more than year to do. No matter how old it is you work it out. The down side is your dogs are not going to get much work in and you are not going to get a lot of cats treed. Or you depend on blind luck and hope you someday come across a big track.

[BIGBLUES]

Casey the big toms I speak of out of MSMA Were anywhere from 145 lbs to 175 lbs. So by no means are these small toms. Like I have said before a buddy of mine kills at least 2 out of there a year that are 140 plus lions. Missoula is a huge breeding ground for lions, there is so much country with little finger ridges and small drainages with plenty of deer and elk that makes for great habitat as well as plenty of private. So for you to think that these big lions are not grown there is silly to me. I do realize lions move to new territory and chase females but there is more reason for a bigger tom to survive longer in msma than a "hunted" permit area since the tom quota is filled in less than a month while permit areas permit holders have all season to search for that trophy lion. This is just my opinion. I hunted Fish creek almost non stop this season and found 2 decent toms (120-140). This is pathetic since this area has a over abundance of lion food. What I did find was females with kittens, 6 different little dinkers and a ton of wolves. I know for a fact you will find bigger lions and more lions in msma than you will in Fish creek. This is only my observation from this year and I am sure other areas vary. There is so much area in the missoula area that never even sees a lion hunter. Have you ever thought that maybe these lions you speak of call msma there home. My point is who knows for sure. Its different in every area and it makes it hard to have any idea whats really going on. Some people say that a lack of snow this year never drove the bigger toms down. But the areas I hunted had plenty of snow up high where it would push the bigger ones down. I don't have an answer to the harvest system but I don't like the hybrid season and I don't prefer the permits either. I would ultimately like to see a quota system with a 1-2 month season. I think the lion population is in for a beating with what is proposed for next year.
I like the picture of the kid and the pup, thats what its about.

[catcrazy_406]

here's a proposal... i think that in this next lion season we keep the msma as a general tag with no quota and shut down all the special draw units to chasing only no killing. that way anyone who wants to kill a cat can get a general tag and hunt the piss out of the msma and we can find out for sure what kind of cats really come out of there. and anyone who wants to actually hunt and get their dogs work and could careless aobut killing a cat cuz they just like to get there dogs out and working and put them on cats can have the whole season and all the mountains to themselves to chase and tree cats. i think that many would find that all the true cat hunters who do it for enjoyment and do it for their dogs would stay away from the msma and all the "great houndsman" will fill the msma to prove how many cats they could kill. i personally wouldn't mind this system cuz i dont care to kill a lion and with this system the lion numbers will go up and the size of the toms around will go up. and anyone who just wants to kill a cat can go kill one. i think this system would be a win/win for all houndsmen. what do you think? i say close all special draw units to no killing (chase only) season and open the msma to a free for all to everyone with no quota. that way everybody wins!!! Casey any thoughts on this system buddy? BIGBLUES any thoughts? im sure all us montana boys would love to hear what the pros have to say.

[BIGBLUES]

here's a proposal... i think that in this next lion season we keep the msma as a general tag with no quota and shut down all the special draw units to chasing only no killing. that way anyone who wants to kill a cat can get a general tag and hunt the piss out of the msma and we can find out for sure what kind of cats really come out of there. and anyone who wants to actually hunt and get their dogs work and could careless aobut killing a cat cuz they just like to get there dogs out and working and put them on cats can have the whole season and all the mountains to themselves to chase and tree cats. i think that many would find that all the true cat hunters who do it for enjoyment and do it for their dogs would stay away from the msma and all the "great houndsman" will fill the msma to prove how many cats they could kill. i personally wouldn't mind this system cuz i dont care to kill a lion and with this system the lion numbers will go up and the size of the toms around will go up. and anyone who just wants to kill a cat can go kill one. i think this system would be a win/win for all houndsmen. what do you think? i say close all special draw units to no killing (chase only) season and open the msma to a free for all to everyone with no quota. that way everybody wins!!! Casey any thoughts on this system buddy? BIGBLUES any thoughts? im sure all us montana boys would love to hear what the pros have to say.

Many thoughts but nothing you wanna hear. I would rather try to figure out a solution instead of bickering with you. I get that you don't think I'm a true lion hunter because I believe in the MSMA and the quota system. I like that you have the balls to speak your mind, although I'm not sure it will help this discussion. I started hunting hounds 12 years ago with no help what so ever. Everything that I have gathered in that amount of time leads me to believe in the quota system. I grew up in a logging family and have spent a lot of time in the woods in areas that many people don't see. I know there is a large lion population in most areas in the western part of the state. Notice I said large not healthy. I see a larger number of little ones and fewer big ones every year. What this means I can only ponder. That's why I started the original post to gather information from houndsmen like yourself that hunt almost every day (I'm guessing) and are pros????? or just the weekend warrior to see what everyone on here thinks.

[catcrazy_406]

to me a "true houndsman" is a guy/gal that hunts 100% for his or her hounds rather than his/her ego. where one chooses to do this is up to the individual. what i feel is a true houndsman has no reflection on where they hunt or how they hunt or what they hunt but WHY they hunt. im not into a pissing contest, i asked for opinions cuz i personally think the system i proposed would be a good system for all hunters. whether i like what you have to say or not isn't an issue its your opinion and everyone is entitled to one so i'd love to hear how you feel about it and your opinions cuz i personally think it would work out great! not a long term system but for a year or two it would be wonderful. and i do hunt many days of the season in many different areas and from my personal experiances the number of mature toms i've seen in the msma are much smaller than what i've seen outside of the msma but hey thats just me and i tend to stay away from that area due to the types of so called houndsman i've ran into there. i rather not be there and be part of that area very often. and again, my opinion of a "True Houndsman" is one that hunts for their hounds rather than their ego. -Drew

[Lost River]

Blue,
Well I would love it if we could collar some cats in the management unit. Maybe we can get together and see if the fish and game would come on board with a study. I am sure you are like me and would volunteer some time to get cats tagged, tatooed or ear tagged. I think that is obviously the best way to get a solid feel for how these seasons, permits and quotas are working. I can appreciate your observations and respect that. I can also appreciate you starting from scratch on your own with dogs. That can be a long long road and many hours of frustration so my hats off to you as I was lucky to have several fellas show me the ropes.
I am wondering if you seen many big tom tracks in the management unit? It is interesting that you bring up Fish Creek area. That is one of the areas we found two solid toms. I think this cat hunting and finding a big track can sometimes be a lot of luck and a little timing. Thanks again for starting the thread. I think a conversation is needed and long term it is going to take time to find the best solution. Happy Hunting, Casey

PS Catcrazy, I think you have cat scratch fever, you might want to see a vet about it! And btw, I am no pro!
Pro... you crack me up. Pro donut eater maybe.

[BIGBLUES]

I agree with your opinion of a true houndsmen plus I believe a true houndsmen is someone that raises and trains his own dogs from start to finish because I believe that is a lot of the experience. I also agree with you about the msma and some real dandys that hunt there. I know of one guy in particular that gets anyone he can to buy tags and fills them just to sell the hide and make money. So there is one big negative aspect of quota along with out of state hunters bombarding the area and the outfitters putting guys on every lion in the country. Drew I don't have an answer. I wouldn't like your proposal because I want the option to kill a nice tom if I so desire. I have only killed one lion and don't really care to kill another unless its the one.

[catcrazy_406]

collaring, tagging, marking, etc. cats would be fun to do! i wouldn't mind being along to watch a couple of them hunts to see how it goes. my grandfather and father and uncles used to do this for the fish and game quite often back in the day and the results that came from those studies would blow some minds! one year they tagged 3 large mature toms in the management zone and not a single one of them was killed in montana. one was shot in nevada, one was shot in utah and one was shot in idaho. all of which tipped the 160 mark. so do i think big cats are taken in the msma? yes. but as far as living there... its hard to say. i've heard a few times from some old time guys that big cats live in the mountains haha thats all the better of an answer i could get from them. but i think tagging lions for some studies would be fun casey! i know my fam had a real kick with it back in the day. 50 years ago my grandma would throw nets over the cats for my grandpa when he pulled them out of the tree. any takers for throwin the net? lol count me out ill hold the dogs back haha all in all this is a good post and a good topic with many good ideas. all of which i believe are better than this hybrid BS. any other good ideas fellas?

[BIGBLUES]

Casey I mainly hunted MSMA in december and I didn't see very many big toms there this year at all. Its been all the previous years that I have seen a lot and killed some. My buddy took 2 nice ones there this year. I have some nice honey holes that I never even hit this year because of bad snow in december early on. As far as Fish creek I mainly hunted late december til april. I saw 2 decent toms down low (130-145) lbs. I don't know if there was more early in december and they disappeared. I was disappointed in that area this year. I think getting together and marking lions in every area should be done to see whats what. You aare lucky to have someone help you along some and share their experience. When I started I didn't have much care for lion populations at all. I just was having a hell of a good time running those stinky bastards and could care less about what was going on. I was a cocky beginner and every houndsmen I met was a prick so I gave me the whatever attitude. It wasn't til about 4 years ago that I started to talk to some of the older fellas I would see out and started getting involved in the bigger picture.
Thanks for the feed back Drew and Casey.

[Lost River]

I know there are more than three or four Montana houndsmen reading this thread and on this site. Where does everyone else stand on this, can we get some of us together at the table sometime and work on this. I would love to work with some guys in region two. Casey

[REB]

Have been following this post and have learned alot. I don't say much on here because I'm still learning. I started hunting with dogs a little over 3 years ago, basically on my own. The first 2 years were pretty tough. This year things started to fall more into place. The first 2 years I hunted mostly on foot. This year I spent time covering more country.
Reading this post , I have changed my opinion a couple of times. Personally, I only want to take one cat (a big one). The rest of the time I can just tree and take pictures, or take bobcats and work with the dogs.
I don't like the F.W.P.s proposal to raise the quotas, there are not that many cats. The cats are taking the heat for the F.W.P.s mismanagement of our deer and elk and also the governments mismanagement of the wolves.
I think I would be in favor of a draw state wide. I don't want to see a shorter season.
If I were a guide, I would be in favor of a quality hunt instead of a quantity hunt.
Thanks to all of you that have put in your time and thoughts. I would enjoy talking with some of you and getting to know you.
Thanks, Rick

[old timer]

Hi Reb, sounds like you are going to make a great cat hunter, the kind we are going to need down the road. Casey I know there's guys out there that are just as interested as you are. I had a long and nice conversation with badlandcats today, he is very interested in a board. There's been some great conversations on this board. Now we need to get organized and sit down with the F&G and try to figure out what the best course of action is, will not be easy, put it most be done. Catcrazy-406, it wound be fun to collar and tag some cats with you. With a board anything can be possible if we work together. Bigblue, there is always going to be bad apples, it's called greed, put we do not let that get in our way. Also you cannot determine a pop. trend in one or two years, it's over a life time, it never stops. It's the reason we need young hunters like Reb and others to take our place as we get older and slower. Thanks for listening, Steve

[REB]

Steve, Wish I was young and full of it.Wish I would have started this when I was only in my teens or twentys. Im now 50, and thinking what the hell am I doing chasing these dogs all over the mountains.