fuel for thought on cat pop. in mt.

[dhostetler]

Yes I would be all for being involved in tagging lions. I have helped a trapper release two live cougars from traps and also have been in on a couple of ground fights pulling dogs off a bayed cougar, so I have a little experience with close cougar encounters. Tagging cougars would be a lot of fun. I am not to sure a board is that great of an idea at this time as hound guys are all over the board on quota vs. permit issues.

In Region 1 when the permits were proposed there was overwhelming opposition. A couple of years into it it changed to overwhelming support including me, now in Region 1 you are starting to see more & more opposition to the current permit system because of the dearth of big toms. I figure in another 2 to 3 years you Region 2 guys will also start second guessing the current system.

I am not sure what you guys want to achieve with a board as there seems to be a majority support on here for the current system. It is also obvious that a lot of guys on here are opposed to increased quotas (which am I too) but that is nothing new as most hound guys have and always will be opposed to an increase harvest.

[BIGBLUES]

I think it is a great idea to get as many houndsmen involved in tracking lions and trying to get a better idea on the population and the movement of these critters. I would be all for it since I have all winter off and could be very active.
I have been talking with Craig the biologist down here and I will hit him up on this issue and see what advice he has.

[old timer]

If houndsman don't think that a board is needed that's fine. Dhostetler, most of the houndsman in region one that was involved were almost all for the draw. Only a couple spoke up against the draw when we held some local meetings in region one, other than outfitters were all against the draw. Maybe there's no need for a board now. But if you are already organized and something comes up, you are already ahead of the game. I know what's happening in Cal. will evenually happen here. Those guys are in a fight for there existence and I hope they can win, it will definitely help us here. We better try and be prepared. As far as being all over the board with idea's, the first board had 14 people with 200 different idea's, does not mean you quit, you work it out as best as possible. A board working together has a lot more power than individuals working separately. Advantages of a board is when you have representation from each area, you can go back after a meeting and inform and hash over idea's with your local groups. That way people are staying informed. Reb, following hounds at 50 will keep you younger longer. It works for me.

[dhostetler]

Oldtimer, Yes I am supportive of a board. I was just questioning the wisdom of setting up a board if the majority of the houndmen seem supportive of the status quo but having a board set up would probably be a good idea for reasons that you stated.

When the permits were first proposed I wasn't as involved with other hound guys as much as now. I had found out of only one meeting in Region 1 which was held in Kalispell and a friend of mine had attended and said that of the approximately 50 attending only 3 supported it. Maybe my friend was full of shit??? I do know that others who strongly opposed the permits at the beginning ended up supporting it after a couple of years. I do believe that the majority of the hound guys in Region 1 currently support the current system though support is waning.

Again what I would like to see is a shorter kill season and for the FWP to achieved there harvest objective they should issue 3X the permits with a quota. That would create a more diverse harvest.

Some hound guys I believe support the current winter long season, is they can concentrate on running bobcats through December then when the bobcat quota closes they can take buddies out with cougar kill tags in Jan. & Feb. and the cougar hunting won't affect there bobcat hunting.

[Badlandcat]

There is more to lion management than quotas.

[BIGBLUES]

There is more to lion management than quotas.

What do you recommend there badlandcat?

[Badlandcat]

Lets start with enforcement of the rules already in place(put the heat on fish and feathers) Make then check kill sites and reported illegal outfitters.
Shorten the report time, we are in the 21st centry and nobody is out of cell or sat phone coverage for very long to cut down on the overrun of quotas.
No 24 hour wait to close season, if quota met it closes at sundown that day.
Manage with science, not politics!!!
If a lion is illegal it still goes on the quota, dead lion is a dead lion and it will not leave anymore tracks.
There is more, but I am tired of typing.

[Lost River]

There is more to lion management than quotas.

What do you recommend there badlandcat?

Gotta be something on your mind?

[huntinlass]

Lets start with enforcement of the rules already in place(put the heat on fish and feathers) Make then check kill sites and reported illegal outfitters.
Shorten the report time, we are in the 21st centry and nobody is out of cell or sat phone coverage for very long to cut down on the overrun of quotas.
No 24 hour wait to close season, if quota met it closes at sundown that day.
Manage with science, not politics!!!
If a lion is illegal it still goes on the quota, dead lion is a dead lion and it will not leave anymore tracks.

I like! Thanks for posting.

[wrbutler]

hey badlandscat- you need to decide what you are standin for here. Do you want lion season on the permit or quota system? IF you want the permit system then a 6, 12, or 24 hr. call system shouldnt matter. there are only so many tags issued for each district. i could see why you would want a close that day type of call in system, there are some houndseman that may take advantage of that 24 hr system from time to time. But if you have an issue with guys illegal outfittin then you should turn them into the officials. dont sit on your ass and wine about not bein able to find a lion track because sitting at home all night thinkin about your next catfish water race, this type of daydeamin isnt going to put lions in trees.

[old timer]

just got to alaska, lots of good ideas still. will be home sometime in june. looking forward to doing some brain storming. dhostetler, when i get back home i will call you and we can set down and talk a little.

[Tug]

Thought I would throw my two bits in here. I wondered how the permit system was working out. I hunt mostly in region 3, 4, and 5 because they are nearest. The last time I checked the state of Montana had the most comprehensive and lengthy cat study of anybody. Look on their website or call them it was in the Garnet range. Mostly if recall hunting played a significant roll in lion mortality and age structure, also somewhere around 40% of the females harvested had a kittens. They do have a clue how to manage lions but its not what the big game hunters want to hear. Also the FWP has a real problem in urban forest interface areas with young cats and people. And cats are not relocated. Has anyone else noticed how the quotas have risen in region 2 since they have started? Even though some were never met? I don't have any answers but my proposal would be to limit out of state hunters and outfitting say 10% or less of the quota. Have a smaller science based quota with a permit system and give out 2 or 3 times the permits. Quota of 10 total, split male female or whatever and 20 or 30 permits to hunters. Quota fills and your tag goes in the soup. I started chasing dogs off and on in the 90's and have family who hunted in the 60's, 70's and 80's. I work in the forest and have hunted a little too. I have not seen a cat track in the general quota districts that was worth talking about for a long time. The districts that have the better cats seem to fill very fast. Thanks Oldtimer for starting this thread with some thoughtful discussion. I am not sure what good a working group would do, but it is probably the only place to start, maybe the squeaky wheel will get some grease. Badlands the problem with your suggestions is there is little value in lions compared to other big game. As you noted in one of your other posts there is little value in older mule deer bucks, compared to everyone shooting one every year. Or maybe Montana just can't grow big deer, except in the permit areas, inside city limits and any other place that limits hunting. I am guessing with the new quotas, lions just got more valuable. For selling tags and as a scapegoat for mismanagement of hunters, wolves and biggame. Look at the Montana record books and look how many big cats were taken in the 90's. Do you mean to tell me that since GPS collars and newer snow machines, tracked ATV's and UTV's we just can not find these big cats. The newest snow machine I was on would go anywhere you are willing to hang on- snow, land or water! Just wondering how many guys have hunted lions like this- multiple snow machines running in all different directions with radios or running roads all night and sitting on tracks or shot a cat because they knew the next guy that treed that cat would shoot it. I don't mean to piss on any ones style but that does not have much to do with lion hunting or dogs and it doesn't leave lions many places to hide. IMHO. I am not an expert but what I do know for sure is hunting of everything doesn't seem to be getting any better and just about everyone agrees with that, we just can't agree with why. Wait I know its WOLVES, CATS, and BEARS! But we just can't seem to kill enough to fill the quotas, maybe we should look at the who and the why of the quotas. Sorry for the speach

[old timer]

I am back from Alaska. Had a good visit with my two daughters in Fair Banks. We saw a lot of game going up and back. No fishing, water to high and muddy just like here. We did leave a day too early. The morning we were going to leave my wife took her dog out side and while out there along with our daughter they see a grizz. about 100 yards away walking. I guess he had been seen a couble of times in the neighbor hood. That night the bear tries to get into their pig pen. My son-inlaw chases him away. 30 minutes later he comes back, this time he will not leave so he ends up shooting him. Fish & Game said it was justified. He got some pictures put was not aloud to keep it. Planning on going back next year and going moose and grizzly hunting with my son-inlaw

[old timer]

There is a FWP meeting in Kalispell on the 13 at 7pm in the Flathead Community college. on the proposed wolf regulations for the upcoming year. If you live within 100 miles you should try to attend. I will be there.

[old timer]

I have been asked if these meetings are worth going to. I know the fustration when you go to these meeting and nothing gets done. It has happened to me a lot. The locale F&G has rules that are set in place by congress and higher agency's and they have a tough job. The regulation that they are looking for this coming year looks real good. Whether goes through or not is another question. The local F&G are trying, we need to support them, at least if we try that's still better than not. War is not won overnight. See you at the meeting