living off the land???

[DWD58]

Good Posts Mike, and no, you are not wrong. The Claude Dallas thing was just as you said...some pushy Law just pushed a poor boy just a little too far. they were trying to push him into a fight so, they could arrest him on a disorderly charge, but they just pushed him farther than even they wanted to. I have seen them just like that...you know there is a fine line they walk on that side of the badge,. And also on Al Lynn, we both heard it from a friend of Als that it was well known that Al always carried a good deal of money on him while out in the woods.
I knew an old man who lived off the land around 20 years ago in the East Tennessee mountains in a little lean to shack . I doubt that he is even still alive now, but I havent been back into the area since the late 1980s. But he lived off the land and was always happy. Didnt even own any transportation. Would walk out to civilization every couple of monthes for supplys. Tough old bird. I often wonder about him.
DW

[raisersedge]

As far as Claude Dallas goes yes he was apoacher if taking a deer now and then is a crime worth a officer of the law to threaten your life and then thinking you are unarmed pull a weapon on you after saying he just had to bring a body in it did not matter if it
was breathing in the same situation I would have done the same thing Mr Dallas did I would have defended myself with extreme prejudice.

I have stomped flat the mountains where the notorious gun happy POgue met his demise. I have talked to people who were accosted by Mr Pogue. They say he acted much the same way Dallas describes. I also have talked to people who knew and know Claude very well and said he would back down from a fight almost to the point of cowardice. When asked whil awaiting sentence by a friend of mine if he had to kill the two "losers" in the shootout his response was "no lie it was me or them."

There were alot of people who when heard Pogue had bought the farm The expressed the sentament that it was only a matter of time until he was killed or he killed someone.

At his trial the only damning thing and the only reason he was convicted was because he had to load his 22 lr to meet out alittle trappers justice. If he hadn't of shot elms with the 22 they would not evenfound him guilty of manslaughter. The jury when asked about the sentence(they recommended 2 years) if they theought it was fair for him to get the maximum their response was the would have found him not guiltyif they knew the judge was going to give out a sentence like that.

So if that makes him a murderer I know several law enforcemnt officer as well as personal friend who have committed murder. Shot and killed armed assailants who where trying to commit serious bodily injury or harm.

Now as I understand it from the classes I have taken Just because you have a badge does not put you above the law. When you break the law you are to be trated as if you are a everyday citizen.

If you don't have the backbone and grit to stand up for yourself, at least don't pass judgment on people who do. I am sure Claude Lafayette Dallas would agree he would rather have been judged by 12 than carried by 6.

[david]

Is there anyone out there that still takes out hunting on foot or horse back for months at a time with just themselves a few hounds and a few shells. I am only curious if anyone still just lives off the land without going in for supplies every day or two. How many of you out there would do with out electric city water a shower and these everyday pleasures. Interested in any replies.

From the time I was 8 years old this was all I wanted to do. I have tried it, and discovered quickly, as everyone else has, that it can not be done legally. Also, It is a pretty well established fact that people are unable to survive as wild animals do. It has been tried by extremists/purists, and really, no modern man has been able to acheive it totally.

But, as also has been shared already, a person can sure enjoy certain elements of a much simpler life style. If you dont have access to private land where you will be left alone, it will not take long befor you begin to sympathize with Claude. I agree, we all, WE ALL, have a breaking point.

I lived on some private land by a private land locked lake in a wall tent for about 8 years. I was, for the most part, left alone. I really did not miss electricity. Not having runing water, and a bathroom was much more inconvenient than not having electricity. I hardly even noticed not having electricity. I noticed not having plumbing and a bathroom every single time I had to get out of bed on a negative 20 degree night.

But, having said that, it is still very difficult and unpleasant for me to want to go into a claustrophobic little tile room where everybody and their brother comes in and exposes/releives themselves. I much prefer my own bathroom that is as big as all outdoors. I often have to restrain myself when it looks like I just might be able to get away with it while in a city somewhere, where the other option is some diseased looking bathroom.

I did not keep the wood stove going at night. In fact, I would have to let things get pretty cold befor going to bed so I would not be throwing off bedding early in the night only to wake frozen solid later. The human body puts off tremendous amounts of heat, and if this can be held close, you can literally be comfortable in any outdoor temperature. Two sleeping bags inside each other was enough for the coldest nights. One was a mummy bag. The other was the heavy coleman flannel lined bag that I know many of you have seen or used. On the coldest nights there would only be small hole in the mummy bag for my mouth and nose exhaling (exhaling in the bag would end in a damp, cold mess).

My two children were with me when they were small, age 0 and age 4.
For them, I bought the ankle length womans goose down coats. I bought them at Goodwill for a couple bucks each. I sewed the bottom shut and sewed up the bottom to where the zipper started. Perfect down sleeping bags for little kids. I tried two of them for each child but they were too hot in them and never needed more than one.

The lake was full of fish. there was always something that could be legally caught all year long. My son hates eating fish to this day. It might be different if I had known how to cook. But if a person could stand a steady diet of fish, he really could legally stay alive there without much outside food.

The tent was amazing. I bought it from and army surplus for 400.00
It was called a "GP small" 8 man, 16' hex. It was designed for arctic camping. It had a light canvas inner wall (tent within a tent) and could hold heat amazingly. The trick was learning how to keep the fire from getting too hot. For the price of one months rent on a cheap apartment I had a mansion for 8 years. I did pay rent on the land: $150.00 per month. Still pretty cheep living.

For two years, the only money I had was from furs, and music performance, and odd jobs when I had to. For a four year period my total yearly income ranged from $4,000.00 to about 5,500.00 per year. It was more than enough, and I was able to have my kids with me almost constantly. They spent weekends with their mom, when I could do some serious hunting or music.

My children and I have fondest memories of those years together. As they reached school age, I tried home schooling them, but it was not long befor I had them in public school... and everything changed.

[mike martell]

claude dallas. was a cowboy that worked outfits in the owyhee country. he worked on the mann lake ranch in oregon in the 70's there one of my hunting partners became friends with claude. his accounts of dallas were favorable. he seemed to think dallas was pushed to the point of fearing for his life. i don't know first hand what happened. but have taken my old hunting partner mark as being accurate.the 22 cal.rifle used to dispatch the two game cops was bought in burns oregon. as mark and dallas were together and bought them at a sporting goods store there.he still keeps his to remember claude by .they are one serial number digit apart. the beef with dallas was he trapping in oregon,idaho, or nevada. it was not clear for sure as who knows the actual boundaries in such a remote location of the states. and posession of illegally taken deer. like mike leonard stated. the cops drove by crack house after crack house to bring dallas to justice. not making the case of legal or illegal. just why would you bother someone who lives like an animal in the woods?evidently it was proved dallas used the trap line 22 to make sure the cop had expired by shooting him behind the ear. if not for that who knows if dallas might have walked ........

[Dan V]

The story of Claude Dallas is not an episode of Gunsmoke or a John Wayne movie. It is real life.

I have heard people talk about Claude fearing for his life and that is why he shot the two Fish and Game Officers.

Think about this: Almost everyone that Fish and Game Officers encounter is armed with a gun or a knife.

If Officers are dealing with a "NO Person" who happens to be armed, what are they supposed to do? Use verbal judo? Think about it, you are the cop. Your job is to enforce laws. Someone is breaking laws and he is armed. Now go arrest him, it is your job. You tell him he is under arrest and he tells you "no." You better pull out your gun because he is armed.... too late. He was afraid. He shot and killed you and your partner. And he finished the job with execution style head shots. Then he went on the run, was captured and went to prison. Then he got scared again and escaped from prison. He went on the run, only to be recaptured again. Maybe we should turn loose all of the cop killers who are scared of being in prison.

What about the drug dealer? After all he is an entrepreneur, a business man. Is that not the American dream? A hazard of the job is dealing with unsavory characters, so you better have a gun if you are a drug dealer………The cops conduct an investigation and now they are on to Mr. Drug Dealer. The cops tell the drug dealer he is under arrest, he says “no.” A gun fight happens because the drug dealer fears for his life. Let’s say the cops get killed. Should we idolize the drug dealer? After all he is just a business man who happens to be engaged in selling a product that the people want.

What about the car jacker? Here is another guy who is trying to make a living. This guy only takes a car from someone at gun point to make a little bit of money. So the police get into a pursuit with this dangerous criminal. After his tires are blown out with stop sticks, the pursuit comes to a stop. Oh no! The cops have guns pointed at the car jacker and he feels scared. He is armed and scared because he does not want to go back to jail again. Better shoot it out with the cops.

Selling illegal furs, illegal drugs or stolen cars…….its all the same. Maybe we should not have laws or cops. Then we can go back to the record lows that we had in game numbers decades ago, our youth can be ruined even more than they are now on drugs and meth heads will car jack your wife on the way to the grocery store.

[tylers dad]

excellent post Dan V

Claude was poaching bobcats and had been warned previously. Claude had made statements that he would never be taken alive previous to the encounter with Pogue and Elms. He lived his self profilling prophecy as he was thinking and training for getting into a gun fight.

Pogue and Elms weren't going to kill him, just take him to jail. Did they deserve to die for this? I'm sure their wives or children think so.

[Arkansas Frog]

I kelp up with that story when I lived in Calif because I ran in those states. I heard he was trapping Nev. bobcat and kelp on after the season had closed. I know they bring a good price.

I think he was let out of prison a few months back, I don't know where but I read it some where.

[tylers dad]

He was released from Idaho Department of Corrections prison in Orofino three years ago. He refused to say where he was going after being released.

[jeff]

To: foolscap
Claude Dallas

In a land the Spanish once had
Called the Northern Mystery,
Where rivers run and disappear
And the Mustang still lives free,
By the Devil's wash and the coyote hole
In the wild Owyee Range,
Somewhere in the sage tonight
The wind calls out his name.
Aye, aye, aye.

Come gather round me, buckaroos,
And the story I will tell:
The fugitive Claude Dallas
Who just broke out jail.
You might think this tale is history
From before the West was won,
But the events that I'll describe took place
In nineteen-eighty-one.

He was born out in Virginia,
Left home when school was through.
In the deserts of Nevada,
He became a buckaroo.
He learned the ways of cattle.
He learned to sit a horse.
He always packed a pistol
And he practiced deadly force.

Then Claude he became a trapper.
He dreamed of the bygone days.
He studied bobcat logic
In the wild and silent ways,
In the bloody runs near paradise,
In the monitors down south,
Trapping cats and coyotes,
Living hand and mouth.
Aye, aye, aye.

Then Claude took to living all alone
Out many miles from town.
A friend, Jim Stevens, brought supplies
And he stayed to hang around.
That day two wardens, Pogue and Elms,
Drove in to check Claude out.
They were seeking violations
And to see what Claude's about.

Now Claude had hung some venison,
Had a bobcat pelt or two.
Pogue claimed they were out of season.
He says, "Dallas, you're all through."
But Dallas would not leave his camp.
He refused to go to town.
As the wind howled through the bull camp,
They stared each other down.

It's hard to say what happened next.
Perhaps we'll never know.
They were going to take Claude in to jail,
And he'd vowed he'd never go.
Jim Stevens heard the gunfire,
And when he turned around,
Bill Pogue was fallin' backwards.
Conley Elms, he fell face-down.
Aye, aye, aye.

Jim Stevens walked on over.
There was a gun near Bill Pogue's hand.
It's hard to say who'd drawn his first,
But Claude had made his stand.
Claude said, "I'm justified, Jim.
They were going to cut me down.
A man's got a right to hang some meat
When he's livin' this far from town."

It took eighteen men and fifteen months
To finally run Claude down.
In the sage outside of paradise,
They drove him to the ground.
Convicted up in Idaho,
Manslaughter by decree,
Thirty years at maximum,
But soon Claude would break free.

There's two sides to this story.
There may be no right or wrong.
The lawman and the renegade
Have graced a thousand songs.
So the story is an old one.
Conclusion's hard to draw.
But Claude's out in the sage tonight.
He may be the last outlaw.
Aye, aye, aye.

[Daniel Tremblay]

I don't really care what anyone says! A man has the right to live off the land if thats what he wants. If he isnt slaughtering numerous animals for the hell of it. I don't think there is a damn thing wrong with killin to live. As for claude...hats off to ya man! I think we need more people like him around. Every day cops and wardens walk around this earth bossing everyone around just because they can. It aint right! They have they're heads so far up they're ass on a power trip, its insane the shit they do! This country is in serious trouble with the president and all government really. It won't be long before the damage is unchangeable. In many cases and situtations it is already to late! I for one respect the men and women that go out there and live off the land. You can mark my words and take em to my grave. Before I die I will be living of the land out there in the middle of no where and thats where I will die. I will not have this government, society, and bullshit be the last thing on my mind when I die. I will go with the beautiful site of the wilderness in my eyes!

[broncobilly]

Daniel,

Just out of curisioty, why do people have the right to live off the land, what gives them that right. If it is, indeed, a right, and everyone were to excersise that right, it would be impossible because there is not enough land or game out there for everyone to live off of.

If, as is possible, our economy entirely breaks down because of government ineptitude and individual irresponsibility(if you think that trusting an electronic credit at a bank to be the same as having real money is responsible, then you will disagree with me on everything else anyway), then everybody will have to try to live off the land. At that point living off the land will loose some of its luster because it will be true jungle law and the great majority of the people who now live in cities will die. As bad as things are now, if that ever comes to pass, people living then will look back on conditions of today with great longing.

Remember, the politicians excuse for cramming health care down our throats is that "health care is a right". Health care is not a right!!!!! We are loosing our freedoms in the name of additional "rights". Any "rights" that cannot be extended to all without trampling the freedoms of some are not really rights at all they are just excuses to take away more freedoms. "Rights" are not what made this country great, it was individual liberty and freedom that did that. Extending evermore "rights" will never return this country to greatness, only a defense of true freedom and liberty will do that. Declaring a "right" to live off the land is not a defense of freedom or liberty.

Bill

[Daniel Tremblay]

The way I see it, this country hasnt been a great country since the 40's or 50's. Back in the ol' days there wasnt such a thing as a liberal or a tree hugger or any of the people that make our country horrible today. I honestly wouldnt miss a breath or a beat if all those people were gone! Thats the problem with the country today, the majority of america is pushing towards total technology and depending strictly of the government to supply them with everything. As far as I know (dont have person experience because i wasnt alive) back in the eariler 1900's the united states didnt have any problems with living off the land and having a declining wildlife population. In my oponion our whole problem with our rights being takin away started from those greedy people that slaughtered the buffalo for the furs.

It all goes back to survival of the fittest. Sure the population of america would be a lot less but who is to say that would be a bad thing. I personally think it would be a good thing.

It just seems to me that a country that once was the envy of the world. The land of the free! Is now being a total shit hole! We are losing everything we have and the only people that are seriously effected by this and bothered, are the little people. The ones that just want to live of the land or simply enjoy living in a small town in the woods and keep to them selves. But since we are those people and have that mind set we have no pull when it comes to voting. The people that once full the country of america are now the minority.

I feel that every person that is an american is entitled they're fair share of the game in america, to live off the land and to do as they please if it doesnt effect another person in a negative way. If america went back to living off the land that population would drop like i said before and there would be enough room for everyone.

I totally agree with you on the bank card deal. I do not trust our government or our banks. I read your post with an open mind and really took everything into consideration. I guess the thing that I left out or mislead you is. I feel america would be a lot better off with about 3/4 of the population gone. Now it is not entirely they're fault. It is society and government that has lead them to live they're life in that way. I grew up in hermiston oregon, which is a town at the base of the blue mountains in north east oregon. I moved to gresham which is basicly portland. I went to school at mt.hood. Hated that place and will never return. It is the only place that provides a two year degree in fisheries technology. Those people are so totally blind to how people in the country live its not funny. They don't even consider our views or concerns. They are in they're own little world on the city life and thats all they care about. Yet they allowed to control the entire state of oregon. How is that right.

After leaving here in La Grande, Or. which is a college town. I have gotten to know people that have come from large cities that have part in those misleading ways of life. After a few years out here in the country...There is a change them became like us to an extent. So i'll say again I don't feel its the peoples fault entirely. The way of life that a large city controls them.

I also feel just the same that if oregon was without that type of people it too would be a great place to live.

Well I can tell that my anger with this state, country and president is causing me to ramble on so I will stop lol. I just firmly feel that we need to join together, not just as members of each state but all sportsmens together and stop this shit while we still have a slight chance.

[Rowdy]

Didn't I read in another post that you were 23?

Your talking about the 40s and 50s and you don't even remember the 1980s!!!!

Your rights extend to the point that they start impeding on my freedoms. YOu living off the land and killing what you want denies me the freedom of running the lion, coon or shooitng and elk or deer. Poaching is theft and theives should be dealt with accordingly.

Living off the land is for people who don't have any other option. I don't know anyone who wants a job that doesn't have one. Get a job and live off of your hard work.

[Dan Edwards]

How would you keep your BEER cold?

set it in the creek

[Riverbottom]

Wow Daniel. How do you decide who to kill off when you are reducing the population? It has been tried many times before, it always gets messy. Read up on Eugenics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics
If this were to come back today (and it might), with the current crowd that is in power, guess who would be on the hit list?

I know lots of people that live off the land, we call 'em farmers.